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09:36 am: "My job as an artist is to make you squirm"
Via [info]dragovianknight, E. Bear writes:

My job as an artist is to tell you what I see, not what I wish I saw. My job is to tell as much of the truth about the world as my tiny flawed inadequate little brain and art can encompass. And the truth--even the tiny, fragmentary, self-contradictory truths that are all I have to offer--the truth will make you squirm.


From Elizabeth Bear, Chapter 3, Blood and Iron:

From the point of view of a werewolf named Keith returning home:
A house--a romantic old heap, more properly--dominated the valley below, straddling the narrow zone of safety between the hillside and where the marshy burn might flood when it rose. Neither precisely a manor house nor a castle, its outline described an irregular rectangle of mortared stone with chimneys and additions and gables protruding at odd angles like the spines of a hedgehog. It was the same color in moonlight or sunlight or overcast--dappled silver and charcoal, a few of the boulders nearest the foundation glinting with mica when the light slanted against it.
So far, so good: though I find it hard to believe that anyone would refer to their family home as a "romantic old heap". Still. This is presumably a 14th-century-or-later house, and such are massive tourist attractions: quite possibly the werewolf in question read - or wrote! - the tourist leaflet.
The sea tossed against a rocky beach; the village was a little way off. The house had the look of a gentleman farmer's abode, and the lawns were indeed cropped close by sheep and shaggy Highland cattle--coos, in Eoghan MacNeill's parlance--but there were those that knew the deeper truth. That there were no more wolves in Scotland, except the wolves who dwelled here.
That - right there - is where I started to squirm. Yes, there are still folds of Highland cattle in the west of Scotland - they even have a website. Yes, sheep are pretty good at keeping a lawn grazed down, though obviously you can't keep sheep on a lawn - they need a lot more space than that. I have never heard of anyone using cattle to keep their lawn grazed, because sheepshit is perfectly tolerable, cowshit isn't. But this all sounds terribly romantic, doesn't it? And that's the main thing. Plus, you get to reference how a Scot might pronounce "cow" as "coo", and refer to this as "parlance", and oh my god, "Eoghan MacNeill"? Eoghan is an Irish name. MacNeill is a Scottish surname - via Ireland, sure, from when the Scots came over about 15 centuries ago. Eógan/Eoghan is a name found in Irish annals only as early as the tenth century - it makes sense as a name for a Scottish werewolf only if you suppose that this family came over from Ireland say in the 15th century or later, and retained an Irish given name in the family: or if I suppose that these are much more modern incomers harking back to a supposed Irish past.

Actually, in all honesty, while the references to "shaggy Highland cattle" and "Eoghan MacNeill" and "coos, in ... parlance" made me squirm right there, I didn't know for sure that Eoghan is a thoroughly Irish name until I'd done some research on it: all I knew was that it really doesn't sound Scottish. But, there's a village: and if a village, that means tourists: and a gentleman farmer who wanted to add an air of picturesque glamour to his dwelling for the tourist trade might well have both cows and sheep on display in front of his house.
[Keith] passed through late summer herbs--the mint gone to flower, the dill setting seed--and scratched and whined at the kitchen door rather than the big main entrance that faced the road and the sea. Stout gray-haired Morag was there to let him in, the dressing gown in her hands draped over his shoulders deftly even as he began to change. His paws became hands as he fumbled with the belt; Morag stepped back to stir the soup pot on the stove.

"Welcome home, young Master," she said. "You were missed a bit. The bread's in the oven. Your father is in his study, and I imagine he'd be glad of ye."
No. No no no no.

Either "stout grey-haired Morag" has been brainwashed by her employers (always a possibility when the employers are magical creatures) or she's terrified of offending them and therefore always obsequiously polite (always a possibility when the employers are werewolves) or the conversation when Keith changed would have gone "Get some clothes on!" or "Cover yourself up, I've seen it all before, the gown's behind the door where it always is." Afterwards: "What time of night do you call this to walk in?" A woman her age who's been working for the one family that long, addressing a man whom she's likely helped bring up and certainly remembers from a child - that she would submissively and silently turn away from stirring the soup to dress him, and address him as "young Master" - suggests something dreadfully, awfully wrong. What has been done to her?

Alternatively, Morag is imported from a Brigadoon film set. She knows she's supposed to behave the way Americans think British servants behave towards "their betters", and will do so while the camera - aka Elizabeth Bear's narrative - is on her.
"I'd have thought he wouldna be at home," Keith answered, bending down to kiss her on the part of her hair. "Isn't it his Glasgow week?"

She hesitated, the thick stock curling around her wooden spoon. "Och. He's not well, Keith my love--"

"Ah." Keith stepped back, thrusting his fists into the pocket of the dressing gown.

Morag dropped her spoon on the ceramic spoonrest--shaped like a chicken--and turned to face Keith. She craned her neck back, hands on her hips, her frown twisting the tip of her nose to one side. "You sound like a damned American, laddie."
This dialogue, matched with the last, is all wrong. If Morag is so brainwashed or so cowed as she appears in the first part - what is she doing telling the young Master what he sounds like? And given that Keith's spoken two sentences and a phatic grunt, why is Morag reacting to the phatic grunt with "you sound American"?
She tch'd, cocking her head to one side like a bird, eyes glittering bright enough to make him laugh. "Go, see your father, young Master. It would be a kindness of you--"

"He's that poorly?"

"Aye."

"I've nowhere else I need to be," he answered. "Of course I'll stay. And I'll go up and see him as soon as I get some clothes on. Will that suit?"

"It will," she said, and stood on tiptoe to kiss the air beside his cheek.
Again, it just doesn't come across right. It's the "young Master", and the air-kissing - she's known him how long and she can't call him "Keith" even at a moment when she's telling him his father's very ill and he should stay home? She can drape a dressing-gown round his shoulders but she can't kiss him or pat him on the arm? What has been done to Morag to make her like this?

Elizabeth Bear doesn't seem to care all that much about Morag, and how her magical employers have terrified or brainwashed her, because we never see her again - at least, not in this chapter (and I'm not buying the book):
Keith joined his father fifteen minutes later, having taken the time to clean the mud from under his nails and change his dressing gown for blue jeans and a cable-knit sweater. The study was only loosely so termed; Eoghan MacNeill had lavished more attention on this room than any other in his slow restoration of the old manor house, and its rugged tapestry-hung walls framed a view of the moonlit ocean through broad modern windows. The massive table that served as Eoghan's desk was butted up against the outside wall. As Keith entered the room, he saw his father's head framed by the window, silver hairs picked out by the green-blue glow of twinned monitors and the remaining ginger strands sidelit by the amber warmth of the fireplace.
The "slow restoration" (and the "rugged tapestry-hung walls") do sound quite like an incoming family who bought the house relatively recently and have been turning it into an authentic tourist trap, providing much employment for the locals. Still, I don't see a woman Morag's age getting into that kind of role-playing - certainly not when there's no tourists about to see. Keith and his father have a conversation about the "princedom of the pack" and the narrative moves on to the fake-Kelpie.

Joking apart, I somehow doubt that Bear regarded Morag as an important character in her story, or cared why she was reacting like this: Morag actually bears all the signs of walking in from Stock Character Casting Call, with instructions to be servile and provide the important characters - the men who will later be exchanging narrative information about princedoms and kingship - with some background information. But still: I wonder what happened to Morag.

This is enough to make me squirm, but not because it's "the truth": it makes me squirm because it's embarrassingly untrue. If it's what Elizabeth Bear "sees", she was at the movies or watching TV when she "saw" it - the romantic depiction of "the young Master returning home to be greeted by the middle-aged female servant". (It also makes me sure, and sad, that Bear has never been a P. G. Wodehouse fan: even Bertie Wooster understood that the phrase "young Master" can be employed only for comic or teasing effect.)

Later in this essay asserting what kind of Artist she is, Bear says:
If you want somebody to tell you what you want to hear, to hew to a party line, or to spread some kind of gospel, you probably want some other kind of artist. If you want somebody to proselytize an ideology, you definitely want some other kind of artist.

I am not here to comfort you.
Well, Blood and Iron is certainly not comforting - it's irritating and discomfiting to realise that there are still people in the world who think that it's appropriate to pull out "Stout grey-haired McCliche" when they think need arises, complete with obsequious dialogue. (Unless, later in the novel, we discover part of being a werewolf is keeping the local village in terrified submission, and the reason for Morag's obsequiousness was that she knew if she failed to address Keith as "young Master" or if he complained about her service, villagers would die. That doesn't quite make sense either with the way she behaves, but maybe she's suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.)

But Bear's notion that in promoting this kind of character, depicting this kind of relationship, she is not "hewing to a party line", just tells me: she's never tried to think politically about what she writes. About how, for example, a pack of incoming werewolves who buy and restore a Scottish 16th-century manor house near a village, and set about raising cattle and sheep, would fit in with the community. (Are they Catholic werewolves or Protestant werewolves? If Protestants, are they Presbyterian or Episcopalian? If Presbyterian, which branch of the church have they followed?) How would the locals react to the new family at the big house? (And they could be "the new family" for fifty years or more...) If Bear thinks that they could simply move in and be princes of the fiefdom without any backtalk from the locals, she is proselytising an ideology - a very conservative, very comforting kind of ideology to a certain kind of person - the sort of person who believes absolutely in the rightness of the class system, in everyone "knowing their place", and the lower orders showing proper respect to the landowner.

That isn't the kind of artist I want. But it is the kind of artist who would write Morag that way and never notice that she had her own thoughts about Eoghan and Keith MacNeill.

(See also: What is a writer's job? at feministsf.)

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Comments

[User Picture]
From:[info]whatho
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:11 am (UTC)
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It also makes me sure, and sad, that Bear has never been a P. G. Wodehouse fan: even Bertie Wooster understood that the phrase "young Master" can be employed only for comic or teasing effect.

*loves* I think what's massively brilliant about Wodehouse - well, one of the things - is that he makes me able to tolerate the existence of Mayfair and its ilk by rendering it wholly unreal. Mayfair makes me so cross every time I walk through it, which admittedly isn't very often, because it has real inhabitants and there are real people whose real job it is to open doors for people who can't be faffed. Then I think about Bertie and suddenly it's all a big ridiculous impossible cartoon world of fluff and comedy and slash and I don't mind so much. But yes. I'd guess your average Morag would more likely belabour the young pillock with a rolling pin and make a dismissive joke about his willy than ... that.

All I could really think while reading what you'd quoted of her work was 'EB's really not from around here'. Not that you have to be, but if you're not that oughtn't really to be the one thing that shines through.
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:34 am (UTC)
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But yes. I'd guess your average Morag would more likely belabour the young pillock with a rolling pin and make a dismissive joke about his willy than ... that.

YES. Seriously. I mean, there's a village nearby, and working at the big house is going to be a serious source of income for the locals, whether guiding parties of tourists or cleaning up the cows whose turn it is to go into the front garden to Look Picturesque, or making soup - but that silent "I'll just wrap a gown round you and make no comment" is something that... well, would only happen if Morag regarded the werewolfiness as a serious and embarrassing disability which it was rude to make jokes about - which later on, it appears she doesn't.

I think what's massively brilliant about Wodehouse - well, one of the things - is that he makes me able to tolerate the existence of Mayfair and its ilk by rendering it wholly unreal. Mayfair makes me so cross every time I walk through it, which admittedly isn't very often, because it has real inhabitants and there are real people whose real job it is to open doors for people who can't be faffed. Then I think about Bertie and suddenly it's all a big ridiculous impossible cartoon world of fluff and comedy and slash and I don't mind so much.

Meh. I suppose these days I think, well, most people who work at jobs like that must do it because they quite like it - it's not like it was back in the 19th century where being a servant was just about the only decent indoor job a working-class woman could get. (There's a couple of novels that I read years ago, about a girl who leaves school at 12 just before WWI, who goes "into service" with a local family, and while the family are very nice to her in their way, and she's treated quite well, it was still weird: she's not even a teenager yet and she's doing a full day's work of other people's housework, and in fact this is considered a good thing for her because she's very bright and doing well at school - she has a good career ahead of her as a servant and the sooner she gets started on it the better.)

All I could really think while reading what you'd quoted of her work was 'EB's really not from around here'. Not that you have to be, but if you're not that oughtn't really to be the one thing that shines through.

It would surprise me if EB's ever been to Scotland. If she has, I doubt if it was for more than a week to admire the landscapes.
[User Picture]
From:[info]mllesatine
Date:dayordMay 2009 07:13 am (UTC)
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Ha! I wanted to say something about Wodehouse, too. My knowledge is entirely fanfic based but even there "young master" is used exclusively by Bertie when he asks for Jeeves' help.

Also: the bit about the shitting cows made me laugh. I'm wondering if the lawns are fenced-in. All the cows I came across were very curious creatures who followed you around or stared at you while standing in the middle of the road. But maybe the Scottish cattle (E.B.'s cattle to be precise) are really just content with being picturesque. ;)

I've already spent too much time thinking about imaginary sheep and cows on imaginary lawns in Scotland. One last question: where do the animals get water? A little undescribed stream next to the castle? Water trough?

[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 07:46 am (UTC)
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Ha! I wanted to say something about Wodehouse, too. My knowledge is entirely fanfic based but even there "young master" is used exclusively by Bertie when he asks for Jeeves' help.

Oh, that's quite canonical.

(Lord Peter Wimsey uses it sometimes, ironically, and I think in a rare example of Bunter's POV he refers to "his master", but I may be making that up - it's one of the early novels where Wimsey has a recurrance of his nervous breakdown, and walks in his sleep to Bunter's bed, addressing him as "Sergeant" and worrying about the sappers and the shells. But Sayers is quite clear that Wimsey is being ironical and referencing the Wodehouse novels - as he's aware of the literary parallels of Famous Sleuths, he's aware of the literary Wooster/Jeeves parallel of employer/servant who are also comrades in adventure/friends - and Wooster's admiration/respect for Jeeves, which Wimsey feels for Bunter.)

Also: the bit about the shitting cows made me laugh. I'm wondering if the lawns are fenced-in. All the cows I came across were very curious creatures who followed you around or stared at you while standing in the middle of the road. But maybe the Scottish cattle (E.B.'s cattle to be precise) are really just content with being picturesque. ;)

Diane Duane comments on horses in fantasy novels being better considered a form of vegetable. Those remarkable non-shitting non-straying cattle and sheep seem to be of a similar breed.

I've already spent too much time thinking about imaginary sheep and cows on imaginary lawns in Scotland. One last question: where do the animals get water? A little undescribed stream next to the castle? Water trough?

*shrug* Elizabeth Bear doesn't say. But I would guess there's a water trough, because she does specify that the watercourse near the castle runs through marsh and sometimes floods.
[User Picture]
From:[info]whatho
Date:dayordMay 2009 08:33 am (UTC)
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In the story Jeeves narrates, as I recall, he refers to Bertie throughout as 'Mr Wooster' (sometimes describes him as 'a young gentleman'). You get the distinct impression that anything else would be a breach of decorum and dignity, and more importantly would undermine the true nature of the relationship. While I think he does on occasion refer to his role as 'Mr Wooster's gentleman's gentleman', I can't imagine his ever calling Wooster his 'master'. Certainly not with a straight face.
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 09:04 am (UTC)
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Certainly not with a straight face.

And yet one cannot really imagine Jeeves giggling. Over anything.
[User Picture]
From:[info]whatho
Date:dayordMay 2009 09:40 am (UTC)
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There'd maybe be a microscopic twitch in one corner of his mouth.
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 09:44 am (UTC)
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And there'd be a fractional pause before he spoke, so that he could muster his gently expressionless voice.
[User Picture]
From:[info]mllesatine
Date:dayordMay 2009 10:49 am (UTC)
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Plus the eighth of an inch raise of one eyebrow.
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 12:06 pm (UTC)

Yes.

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"I endeavour to give satisfaction," Jeeves paused. I eyed him with a bit of uncertainty, rather like I think that chap who went around slaying dragons all the time when a fresh dragon showed up at a time when he was out of his armour and his sword had gone away to be spring-cleaned and his horse was having lunch. Not that I'd call Jeeves a dragon. Or myself a saint, for that matter. In fact, some people, naming no aunts, claim Jeeves is a saint for putting up with me. Which I suppose would make me a dragon. Anyway, the point I am trying to convey is, that when Jeeves pauses like that it's dashed worrying, because he's obviously turning something over in his mighty brain, and I was, I admit, just a bit convulsing with anxiety that I'd gone one step too far and the next words out of his mouth were going to be "I wish to tender my resignation, sir."

Jeeves has very noticeable eyebrows. I notice them, anyway. One of his eyebrows went up, some fraction of an inch, and his mouth twitched just a bit. He said, in his usual mellow and mellifluous tones, "...young Master."

A gentleman must draw a veil over what followed - the private relationship of a gentleman with his gentleman's gentleman being no concern of the rest of the world - but if you were in any doubt, Jeeves always gives the utmost satisfaction. And I endeavour to reciprocate.
[User Picture]
From:[info]mllesatine
Date:dayordMay 2009 02:21 pm (UTC)

Re: Yes.

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Exactly how it happened. :D
[User Picture]
From:[info]copracat
Date:dayordMay 2009 03:54 pm (UTC)

Re: Yes.

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So in effect 'young Master' is 'the signal'? I can live with that. I was going to say 'the anti-safe word', but that's not right!
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:32 pm (UTC)

Re: Yes.

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Well, it's a signal, anyway. Depending.

...somehow I find the idea of Jeeves as a bottom totally unnerving.
[User Picture]
From:[info]copracat
Date:dayordMay 2009 07:39 pm (UTC)

Re: Yes.

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Good God, yes. I think you've bent my brain with that thought what I have never thought before. Jeeves is simply the bottomiest top.

(In coincidental news, a Scotswoman is working in my office today. I realised that I read all journals in my own accent because it suddenly occured to me that the rhythm of 'totally unnerving' is likely entirely different when you say it.)
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 01:12 am (UTC)

Re: Yes.

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Jeeves is simply the bottomiest top.

Very much so. (This had not quite occurred to me either, but it's just so right.)

In coincidental news, a Scotswoman is working in my office today. I realised that I read all journals in my own accent because it suddenly occured to me that the rhythm of 'totally unnerving' is likely entirely different when you say it.

I don't have much of a Scottish accent, but maybe. You must let me know sometime. ;-)
[User Picture]
From:[info]dragovianknight
Date:dayordMay 2009 12:34 pm (UTC)
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Your commentary makes me think Morag's got quite an interesting story. Only I don't want it written by Elizabeth Bear. :P

Also...awww, Highland Cattle are adorable. ::scritches the shaggy shaggy cows...I mean, coos::
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 12:58 pm (UTC)
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Your commentary makes me think Morag's got quite an interesting story. Only I don't want it written by Elizabeth Bear. :P

Yeah. I think Bear sees Morag in terms of her relationship with werewolves.
[User Picture]
From:[info]dragovianknight
Date:dayordMay 2009 02:10 pm (UTC)
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Well, it's not like some old bag of a servant is going to have anything else in her life, right? Not when Bear's Very Speshul Werewolves are around.
From:[info]spiralsheep.livejournal.com
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:12 pm (UTC)
(Link)
::appreciation of the analysis in your post::

Did you ever see the extract of Shadow Unit that was posted around and about a while back? It was excruciating.

passed through late summer herbs--the mint gone to flower, the dill setting seed--and

... decided to suggest his father sack the gardener for failing to prevent invasive plants taking over the kitchen garden. ;-)
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:31 pm (UTC)
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Did you ever see the extract of Shadow Unit that was posted around and about a while back? It was excruciating.

No?

passed through late summer herbs--the mint gone to flower, the dill setting seed--and

... decided to suggest his father sack eat the gardener for failing to prevent invasive plants taking over the kitchen garden. ;-)
From:[info]spiralsheep.dreamwidth.org
Date:dayordMay 2009 01:20 pm (UTC)
(Link)
There's a particularly excruciating extract from Shadow Unit here:

http://fengi.livejournal.com/912312.html

Originally posted by the authors in this context:

http://www.shadowunit.org/coffins.html

decided to suggest his father eat the gardener for failing to prevent invasive plants taking over the kitchen garden.

Whatever would Morag and the villagers think of that? Oh, wait... we'd probably never find out. ;-)
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 01:57 pm (UTC)
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There's a particularly excruciating extract from Shadow Unit here

Oh! Oh, that was the "Does he have an ethnic identity?" / "I wish I had an ethnic identity" passage. Yes, I had seen that, at least the quote from it. Goodness, that was awful.

Whatever would Morag and the villagers think of that? Oh, wait... we'd probably never find out. ;-)

Of what possible interest could the views of the lower classes be about the menu of a princely werewolf?
[User Picture]
From:[info]the_willow
Date:dayordMay 2009 01:19 am (UTC)

via Drakovigan

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Somehow I'm not surprised to discover I was right to wtf over that part of the book. I knew I don't know anything about Scottish life. But I've come to feel that some aspects of village life are universal, which can be helpful, provided you know anything about village life at all.

Truth be told, I never bothered to ponder the woman's fate or actions because all I saw was 'Stock Scottish Old Marm' and found myself thinking if they'd been American, she'd have been a black Mammie. It must have been the 'young Master' that twigged my subconscious. Or maybe later it was the thick cable knit sweater.

So now that it's been pointed out two ways in which Bear fell quite happily into the status quo no matter what she thought she was over-turning - does anyone thing she'll ever actually listen?

PS: I feel an odd camaraderie over the whole bit re: 'what locals do for tourist dollars, vs how they really live their lives'.
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 02:19 am (UTC)

Scottish rural life

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Scotland, for a small country, is divided up in different ways: there are the Highlands and the Lowlands, the East coast and the West, the Central Belt (Edinburgh, the Lothians, Glasgow, and to a certain extent the towns in between Edinburgh and Glasgow served by the fast train between the two), the Borders, the cities like Aberdeen or Inverness which aren't actually that big but which are the only urban area within a day's traveling distance - and the islands. Then it matters whether you're Catholic or Protestant, and if Protestant, which variety of: and in a small village it matters enormously whether you're an incomer or a local.

My locale and background in Scotland is Edinburgh, East Coast, Lowlands, reared-Protestant-but-currently-with-no-religion (about 1 in 4 Scots identify as "no religion", whatever they were brought up as). I've never lived in a village. So actually, I wouldn't have any special insights into what that's like. But I know enough to know I'd have to find stuff out - I'd want to figure out exactly where this village was, what the dominant religion of the place is, how the werewolf family get along with the dominie (the local schoolteacher) and the minister or the priest (or both - or neither, depending what size the village is). Who runs the village pub? Shop? Postoffice, if they have one? Who's the local GP?

There is no indication that Elizabeth Bear thought about any of that, here: just "village", "Morag", "romantic-looking stone house", then... werewolves.

You took a lot of flack for not finishing it. I read my way through the three chapters available online to see if it got better, but if I'd been standing in a shop checking it out, I don't think I'd have got as far as chapter 3. It doesn't hold my interest.
[User Picture]
From:[info]the_willow
Date:dayordMay 2009 02:47 am (UTC)

Re: Scottish rural life

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I tend to think I also took flack for throwing it and admitting to doing so. It wasn't personally engaging and then it was also hurtful.

The thing your thoughts makes me think of, is the underlying relationship between a village and a family of supernaturals. Small villages have enough secrets and underlying strife as it is, generations of history, without adding paranormal aspects to everything.

It's a little Annatevya and a little Balleykissangel and a little Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, and several, several lines in between.
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From:[info]ide_cyan
Date:dayordMay 2009 04:25 am (UTC)
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Great post! (Perfunctory comment; I mean it, but I don't know how to expand yet & my battery's running low.)
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:53 am (UTC)
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Thank you!
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From:[info]ide_cyan
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:15 pm (UTC)
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Cericonversion on the second page of comments is for the win for telling Bear that if her aim is de-centering people and if her art is aimed at those less privileged than herself, then she's a sadist.
[User Picture]
From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 05:50 pm (UTC)

Thanks for directing me there.

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I really liked what [info]cericonversion said:
If you have has an aim de-centering people (making them squirm, making them feel that their answers are incomplete in the face of a more complicated universe than they are aware of and wish to accept), then...well, if you see your aim as that and you aim your art at people already less privileged than yourself, then you're a sadist. But you don't sound like a sadist, at all. So presumably you aim at people in need of it, which is to say, people with as much or more privilege as you already have. And that leaves out people in other situations - including sorts of people who have been trying to tell you that they have problems with some of what you write.

That is, maybe your sense of your art is doing you a disservice when it comes to being prepared for those responses, if it leads you to think of them as more suitable subjects (with which to de-center those who use their privilege to ignore, stereotype, and silence them) than readers. Because I don't see how you can think both of an audience that needs the sort of de-centering you say you aim to offer and of an audience composed of people whose lives are already that de-centered and more.
Because I think maybe that is the problem - or a problem. That Bear is thinking of people outside her field of privilege as subjects for unsettling people of similar or greater privilege to herself, not people.
[User Picture]
From:[info]ide_cyan
Date:dayordMay 2009 09:59 pm (UTC)

Re: Thanks for directing me there.

(Link)
YW.

*nod* That's a pretty big problem.

Bear's thinking comes across as superficial to me -- her disdain toward ideologies in bulk and political standoffishness resulting in reactionarism, instead of unpleasant-truth telling, because the truths that she sees and understands as irreducibly complex -- those are founded on patterns of domination and accompanied by the attendant dominant ideologies which, by placing all ideologies on equal footing in her view, she will tend to overlook and perpetuate, because they are already favoured by their material position.
[User Picture]
From:[info]ide_cyan
Date:dayordMay 2009 10:15 pm (UTC)

Re: Thanks for directing me there.

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...material foundations, rather.

Not wanting to "proselytize an ideology" is one thing, but it's kind of impossible not to put political messages in one's writing; since the only ones that can appear invisible are the dominant mystifications the form the default/baseline, because they're taken for granted.

So in her apolitical aims, Bear can manage such contradictions as to seek to make an idealised universal reader squirm at some unpleasant truth, but elicit grateful recongnition from a likewise idealised uncatered-for 12-year-old (default male, mind), without acknowledging that the latter audience means the former is less than universal.
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From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 02:26 am (UTC)

Re: Thanks for directing me there.

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Bear's thinking comes across as superficial to me -- her disdain toward ideologies in bulk and political standoffishness resulting in reactionarism, instead of unpleasant-truth telling, because the truths that she sees and understands as irreducibly complex -- those are founded on patterns of domination and accompanied by the attendant dominant ideologies which, by placing all ideologies on equal footing in her view, she will tend to overlook and perpetuate, because they are already favoured by their material position.

Yes, but - at root, it seems to be the same kind of problem as surfaced in Writing the Other and the various blowback posts: at a fairly basic level, Bear is sufficiently convinced she is doing this well enough to advise others about it. And that in turn is what ultimately bothers me about all of this - she just isn't, I feel, a good enough writer - or a bad enough writer - to merit this kind of attention. (Or at least, she's not my kind of writer, and not just because most of what I've read of hers has been this kind of pseudo-Celtic stuff - I'm not even well enough acquainted with her work to know if pseudo-Celtic is a theme or just a one-off.) She hasn't succeeded in making me care about any of her characters - there are writers who could stick in Morag MacCliche and I wouldn't care until I'd re-read the book a few times because I'd really want to know what's happening with Keith and Eoghan, or be anxious to get back to the adventures of the little wooden kelpie - there are writers who, once I'd read the first three chapters, I would be desperate to know what happened next. Bear is not one of them.

Not wanting to "proselytize an ideology" is one thing, but it's kind of impossible not to put political messages in one's writing; since the only ones that can appear invisible are the dominant mystifications the form the default/baseline, because they're taken for granted.

Yes. And the lack of recognition of this basic fact about writing - everyone has political views, and everyone's political views are exposed when they write fiction: but political views which are so dominant in the culture that they are regarded as "baseline normal", are usually invisible to the majority of readers, and (if you are an unaware writer) are also invisible to the writer. Which says nothing about Bear's ability as a writer, but does say she's never really thought very much about why she thinks what she thinks politically - or that her political thinking is so comfortably within the baseline, that she doesn't think of it as political at all.


So in her apolitical aims, Bear can manage such contradictions as to seek to make an idealised universal reader squirm at some unpleasant truth, but elicit grateful recongnition from a likewise idealised uncatered-for 12-year-old (default male, mind), without acknowledging that the latter audience means the former is less than universal.


Yes. Ceri's comment about Bear directing her writing to those of at least equal privilege with her, and Bear's puzzled response.
From:[info]rainherder
Date:dayordMay 2009 07:18 pm (UTC)
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And given that Keith's spoken two sentences and a phatic grunt, why is Morag reacting to the phatic grunt with "you sound American"?

And given that Keith says:

"I'd have thought he wouldna be at home," Keith answered, bending down to kiss her on the part of her hair. "Isn't it his Glasgow week?"

Exactly how does he sound American? Is he adopting a fake American accent? And how is he managing that with verbiage that is not especially American? Is she trying to make Morag sound stupid, bigoted, or both? If Bear wants the reader, who can't hear the fake accent, to believe that Morag thinks Keith sounds American, she should have had him say, "I thought he wasn't home... isn't he in Glasgow this week?"

Or is it just the "Ah," and the sound of Keith "thrusting his fists into the pocket of the dressing gown" that's supposed to make him sound like a damned American, and exactly what is the sonic difference between an American thrusting his fists into his pockets and a Scottish werewolf thrusting his fists into his pockets? ;)

Actually, what I think may have happened, if Bear ever actually did visit Scotland to do research, was that she asked the locals too many stupid questions and they gave her bad information, which she took at face value ("Eoghan? Sure that's a Scottish name. Everybody's got one in their family."). But that's just speculation on my part.
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From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordMay 2009 01:48 am (UTC)
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Actually, what I think may have happened, if Bear ever actually did visit Scotland to do research, was that she asked the locals too many stupid questions and they gave her bad information, which she took at face value ("Eoghan? Sure that's a Scottish name. Everybody's got one in their family."). But that's just speculation on my part.

Well, it's not a name I'd ever heard used - though when I googled on it, I found a bunch of people from Ireland have it and it has perfectly respectable antecedants as a Irish name. But the most popular name website I found lists it as "Irish, Scottish" (it is a Gaelic name, and Irish and Scottish Gaelic are closely joined on the language tree). I think Bear must have liked the name, known it was a "Celtic name", looked up just enough to confirm to her it was a Scottish name... and there you go.

Exactly how does he sound American? Is he adopting a fake American accent? And how is he managing that with verbiage that is not especially American? Is she trying to make Morag sound stupid, bigoted, or both?

Oh yes, that certainly. Insofar as she's bothering with characterisation at all, she's presenting Morag as not very bright and very insular.

If Bear wants the reader, who can't hear the fake accent, to believe that Morag thinks Keith sounds American, she should have had him say, "I thought he wasn't home... isn't he in Glasgow this week?"

Well, it is possible for someone who lives in the US to acquire a very oddly modified Scottish accent. But describing Morag's perception of that would require a descent into Morag's POV - which Bear has not in fact done.

Or is it just the "Ah," and the sound of Keith "thrusting his fists into the pocket of the dressing gown" that's supposed to make him sound like a damned American, and exactly what is the sonic difference between an American thrusting his fists into his pockets and a Scottish werewolf thrusting his fists into his pockets? ;)

Or... just possibly, Bear is presenting herself as not very bright and terribly insular. ;-)
From:[info]opheliastorn.livejournal.com
Date:dayordJune 2009 03:35 am (UTC)
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I started reading EB's Promethean Age series a few months before RaceFail, and I got pushed out of the story by the Scottish bits, as well. And thsi is me with no connection to Scotland closer than a handful of generations and a flatmate who went there on holiday last Christmas. After the urban fantasy of Bear's American setting, her Scotland just seemed ... off. Thank you for picking it apart and showing me what was wrong with it; now I get to puzzle over what I found strange and how it matches up to the genuinely strange bits.
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From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordJune 2009 04:38 am (UTC)
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Oh, a large part of what was wrong with the three chapters that I read was the "film set" effect - the feeling that this world has no depth, it's just painted scenery. But this was peculiarly bad scenery...
From:[info]opheliastorn.livejournal.com
Date:dayordJune 2009 09:47 pm (UTC)
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Yes. Not scenery painted from memory of seeing the actual scene itself, but scenery painted from a memory of what someone else painted in imitation of someone else thinking, um, maybe Scotland's like THIS! With amazing poo-free cows. I mean, highland cows may be prettier than the boring creatures we have down here, but I'm sure they shit exactly the same, ie wherever you are next about to put your foot.
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From:[info]yonmei
Date:dayordJune 2009 02:05 am (UTC)
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Yes.

I wrote the feministsf essay on art being selectively fractal after, by coincidence, spending two or three days in a real Scottish village... and thinking about the difference between reality; and art; and Bear's washy portrayal.
From:[info]opheliastorn.livejournal.com
Date:dayordJune 2009 06:10 am (UTC)
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After coincidentally staying in a Scottish village? What excellent timing the universe has.

And it's horrible, but here I am, loving all of your commentary, and wanting to hear moar, moar! Which would require you to actually read more, and that would be a painful exercise. But, yanno, just in case you happen to scrutinise any other stories ... *lurks*
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